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On my guitars, I continue to be disappointed by how quickly EM6000 breaks down under the right arm of the player. I love the stuff for how safe and relatively pleasant it is to work with. But to put in all that work only to have the instrument look 20 years old after a year or two is pretty disheartening.

I think that other builders are having a better experience with this stuff. My hunch is that they are spraying it - which I can't set up for in my tiny shop. Instead I've been adding retarder so I can brush it on.

Does anyone know if brushing with retarded might lead to a softer final product?

I'm also open to your suggestions if you know of a finish that is equally safe (my shop is in the basement right beside where my kids play) and tougher.

I'd also be happy to pay someone that's set up to spray nitro or polyesther - but don't know anyone in Western Canada that does it.

Thanks in advance for opinions / advice.

Phil

Where in Western Canada are you?

I had the same problem with KTM 9, also an acrylic. Also with retarder. I suspect it's the retarder. I did have better luck with KTM SV. Zero blistering, but it was also sprayed on with no retarder. You might try thinning the em 6000 with water. Some people have good luck with that stuff, but I got scared of it.

Try KTM SV.

As for contracting out, send me a PM I can hook you up. Nitro or UV cure poly. The old Larrivee painter is available and he's good. You can get it sent back buffed too!

I never seemed to get a hard finish with it. I didn't use retarder.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Chris

Have u posted this over at Target? Or scanned relevant threads? Lots of builders post there and owner responds to threads. Also, why does small space prohibit spraying? Compressor size?

What does the break down look like? Flaking off, blistering, wearing through, or something else? What percentage of retarder do you use?

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Your post got me worried because I'm using EM6000 with retarder. I remembered that I've recently noticed that the top on a guitar I finished with EM6000 two and a half years ago has been looking dull where my arm rests on it. I took a close look and couldn't tell if the dullness was due to grubiness or deterioration of the finish. I hit it with fine polish and had it back to good as new in about one minute. This guitar has been played regularly during those two and a half years.

I'm using 16% retarder.

Before and after polishing:

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I have used EM6000 on two guitars from last year and they seem to be fine so far. I did not use retarder and sprayed it on with a Fuji HVLP. I currently buffing out my latest with it. I have been spraying over shellac over z-poxy...

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Steve Sollod (pronounced sorta like "Solid")
www.swiftcreekguitars.com

I have had simular issues, on the neck as well

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MK5acoustics.com

The break down looks like blistering. And you can feel that the finish is softer around the area of the blistering. Certainly not as simple as buffing out.

Most of my guitars have felt a bit too soft to the touch. The worst was certainly the first two necks that I ever made. I covered them in first generation KTM and that always felt a bit gummy or tacky - especially in summer. Both of those have been stripped and refinished.

Mike, the shop is just too small to add anything else. The cost of the equipment doesn't even scare me off. I'm just that tight for space.

For now I'm crossing my fingers on the contact Ed will give me. A western Canadian finisher would be awesome!

So, what percentage retarder are you using?

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I have seen many water based lacquers over the years that made all sorts of claims. I have yet to see anything that even approaches the hardness and durability of the worst solvent based finish. Nearly all water based finishes I have seen looks, smells, and dries exactly the same.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai,

When you make it to the states you should order some of this so you can give it a try. I understand where you are coming from when you compare this to "many" water based lacquers, but this one is a bit different. Its not perfect, but its not the same as the "many" others I've tried.

The big plus is that I can use a solvent to burn in to the previous coat much like with nitro. It dries clear and polishes nice. It is easy to repair. It doesn't have a solvent smell (it does have a smell though) so once its sprayed you can bring it in the house and let it hang to cure. Its durable with exposure to water once it is dry. I've got a test going on with this that has been successful.

However....

It does have some down points. I'll address the big ones I have in response to Phil's question.

Phil,

I have a guitar that is my main player that is about two years old and is finished with EM6000. Overall the finish is pretty hard and I'm pleased with its durability. I had this feeling over that first year curing that it was getting harder and am satisfied with where it has ended up. It did feel like it took forever for the initial cure to happen though. Other than the blue cast the main issue I have with it is that it reacts to the rubber on a guitar stand. My "soft area" on my guitar is in the spot where I have the guitar stand covered with a towel. Right on the upper part of the back I can see towel marks. I never removed the rubber from the stand so I'm a bonehead for that. I'm not sure if its softness from the contact with the towel of if the rubber is causing something to happen through the towel. It isn't happening at the rim of the guitar where it is sitting on the stand. I'm usually playing in a short sleeve shirt so my contact in the lower bout is skin on guitar.

John

I had the same issues with KTM 9. It scared me away from em6000 cause as far as I can tell it's pretty much the same thing, a waterborne acrylic that casts a blue tinge.

I switched to KTM SV, and it was much better. Still doesn't dry as hard as a solvent based finish, but it works. Zero blue tinge. Zero blistering under hand and body sweat. Buffs out real nice, stays looking good. If you need to be water base, look into it.

PS, the blue in the photos is a reflection of the sky outside the window.

I've finished four guitars so far with EM6000 and haven't seen any of the dreaded blue tinge at all.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I found that if the wet coat is 3-4 mils you do not get a blue cast. I have done 15-20 coats with no blue cast. If the spray is thick it can get a slight blue tone. EM7000 has a lot more solids and is very sensitive to how thick the finish is sprayed on.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

I agree John, I have sprayed 26 guitars now with EM6000 over 5 years.
The only time I have seen a blue haze is early on when I was spraying too thick with a cheapo gun.
My schedule is similar; 3 sessions of 5 light coats per day, a couple of days in between, finish sand and buff after at least a week.
No sags, no blue, no solvents, all good.
Absolutely no issues with the finish being "soft" or reacting with sweat or fingerboard use.
A few of my projects are in the hands of "real" players that get a lot of use....

When I did mine I had put it down with some thicker coats. That certainly could have something to do with the blue cast. I was also using a cheaper gun and my control wasn't the best.

This is kind of cool looking at the durability of the finish. When I first got some EM6000 my daughter asked me to hang up the bird feeder she just painted. I think this was a harbor freight kit bird feeder and she painted it with some water based craft paint. I was sure that paint wouldn't hold up to the elements so I sprayed a few light coats of EM6000 on. I wasn't sure EM6000 would hold up either. At the time I was dialing in my setup and it sounded like a good idea. The finish on this is hard and has stood up to exposure to the elements in North Florida for over 2 years. That includes Tropical Storm Debbie in 2012 which totally flooded our area.

I just finished the 4th guitar using EM6000. All sunbursts, really like it for all the reasons except one....it's too soft. Tried letting it hang before the buff for twice the recommended cure time. No improvement. A hard WB lacquer / whatever would be real nice to find. I'm done with the EM 6000, nice finish for sure....just not for me, on guitars.

What led you to conclude it's too soft? Does it scratch or ding easier than you think it should, does it feel tacky, or something else?

How long was twice the recommended cure time?

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

200 hrs plus. Recommended cure time: 100 hrs. Scratches way too easily, and, any sort of bump in to anything during average use, produces some sort of ding/chip out that requires a drop fill repair ( which is easy to do, but time consuming ) and I've yet to find a good final hand buffing compound that I like, doesn't have some sort of adverse reaction ( tried Menzerna / Maguires. I've also found the their finishing forum to be a waste of time , to get any solid answers, in any sort of a timely fashion. I could live / improve all that other stuff, but the hardness issue lingers.

"General Finishes" Professional series Water Borne Enduro line of products seems to have found favor with several prominent makers. I know nothing about it, only that the talk is out there.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

brazil66 - Thanks for your reply. For whatever it's worth, I let the finish cure 4 weeks (670 + hours) before final sanding and polishing. That's based on the recommendations of EM6000 users I read on forums. I don't know if using a longer cure time would improve your experience or not.

I have a guitar I finished with EM6000 a little over three years ago. It's been played quite a bit and isn't babied. It only has three tiny impressions in the finish and no scratches so far.

Does anyone on the forum who uses EM6000 have guitars that have been out and about being used and have a track record for the durability of the finish?

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

My daily player has EM6000 on it. I finished this one 4+ yrs ago. I play out weekly so this one has some miles on it. Pick wear is similar to nitro but maybe a bit worse than I would have expected at this age. The only problems I've had is some of the finish has chipped off on the neck but that may be my fault as I had to remove the fret board and replace the truss rod about 6 months after I built it. Neck was refinished but I can't guarantee I resealed it as well as when I did the original finish. So all in all it's ok but I wasn't completely satisfied so I'm using nitro now.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Surprised to see that this thread was still alive.
I started it so maybe I should wrap it up.
I took Ed's suggestion and shipped my two most recent guitars off to Vancouver for the custom UV treatment. They came back beautiful, and saved me countless hours of frustration, and are covered with a finish that is as durable as anything out there. And they got the finish on the top so thin that I think it's pretty much inert, sound-wise.